PS2 Parts & HDD Question

[Mark]

Hi all,

I've built up a small collection PS2's.
They are:-
Model 30/8086
Model 50/80286
Model 70/80386
All are in working condition and the '286 & '386 are relatively complete.

The Model 30 is missing the riser & battery holder assembly as well as the
'hard card' HDD so it's just running with the two 720k floppies at
present. I'm in Sydney, Australia and was wondering if there was anyone
relatively 'local' that I may be able to get parts for PS2's from.

Also, could I connect a small (40Meg) IDE HDD to it instead of the hard
card?

If it is possible and as the supply rails are included on ribbon cable to
the drive, I would need to make up a special cable to convert from whatever
the PS2 connections are to IDE. I have the pin connections for IDE but
was wondering if anyone knew what the pinout for the PS2's HDD would be?

Regards,
Mark.

[Saskia Bormann]

Hi Mark!

Post by Mark
Also, could I connect a small (40Meg) IDE HDD to it instead of the hard
card?

Sure, if you put in a controller card. But that's the thing with the
hardcard: The Model 30 is small, and therefore the HDD is mounted right
on the card. So you should better put in a hardcard, it doesn't matter
which type, it just has to fit physically.

Post by Mark
If it is possible and as the supply rails are included on ribbon cable to
the drive, I would need to make up a special cable to convert from whatever
the PS2 connections are to IDE.

Why do you think that it's possible? Only the later PS/2 models have IDE
drives (which is a very bad thing). Early ones have ESDI or SCSI. They
both aren't IDE compatible, because they are mass storage buses, and IDE
is just an stupid internal parallelport - guess the performance or CPU
load compared to normal mass storage interfaces of the same generation ;o)

Saskia

[Russ Blakeman]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:52:24 +0200, Saskia Bormann

Post by Saskia Bormann
Hi Mark!

Post by Mark
Also, could I connect a small (40Meg) IDE HDD to it instead of the hard
card?

Sure, if you put in a controller card. But that's the thing with the
hardcard: The Model 30 is small, and therefore the HDD is mounted right
on the card. So you should better put in a hardcard, it doesn't matter
which type, it just has to fit physically.

Post by Mark
If it is possible and as the supply rails are included on ribbon cable to
the drive, I would need to make up a special cable to convert from whatever
the PS2 connections are to IDE.

Why do you think that it's possible? Only the later PS/2 models have IDE
drives (which is a very bad thing). Early ones have ESDI or SCSI. They
both aren't IDE compatible, because they are mass storage buses, and IDE
is just an stupid internal parallelport - guess the performance or CPU
load compared to normal mass storage interfaces of the same generation ;o)

I don't think IBM ever put IDE in the PS/2's - PS/1's had them and you
could put in a Reply aftermarket board with IDE but I don;t think I've
ever seen a factory setup with IDE. There are IDE controllers since
the 30 is ISA but on the 8086 models you need to find an 8 bit
controller.

SCSI is quicker and cheaper and easier to find.

Post by Saskia Bormann
Saskia

[Cheers]

Hi

Post by Russ Blakeman
I don't think IBM ever put IDE in the PS/2's - PS/1's had them and you
could put in a Reply aftermarket board with IDE but I don;t think I've
ever seen a factory setup with IDE. There are IDE controllers since
the 30 is ISA but on the 8086 models you need to find an 8 bit
controller.

I am aware of at least one ps2 that used IDE, model 9577

[Peter H. Wendt]

Post by Cheers
I am aware of at least one ps2 that used IDE, model 9577

The Lacuna-77 is the only MCA-PS/2 with IDE.

ISA Mod. 33 (9533 - PS/2e) and 35 / 40 have them as well.
And the 9535 / 9540 that use the 9533 board.

The IDE port on the server 320 / 520 seems to be unsupported, since
there is only the pin pattern with no physical connector present.

[Russ Blakeman]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:27:54 +0200, "Peter H. Wendt"

Post by Peter H. Wendt

Post by Cheers
I am aware of at least one ps2 that used IDE, model 9577

The Lacuna-77 is the only MCA-PS/2 with IDE.
ISA Mod. 33 (9533 - PS/2e) and 35 / 40 have them as well.
And the 9535 / 9540 that use the 9533 board.
The IDE port on the server 320 / 520 seems to be unsupported, since
there is only the pin pattern with no physical connector present.

That explains why IDE with me and PS/2 is a "huh" - never have seen a
77 Lacuna (67 Malibu though LOL) and 33, 35 and 40 machines had been
pretty much trash by the time I got them.

[William R. Walsh]

The Model 76 Lacuna and 77 Lacuna had IDE on the planar.

So did 25SX, 35SX and 40SX.

There might be others...

William

[Louis Ohland]

9553

Post by William R. Walsh
The Model 76 Lacuna and 77 Lacuna had IDE on the planar.
So did 25SX, 35SX and 40SX.
There might be others...
William

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

9553

It has a Reply board. That doesn't count. Even the FCC ID isn't IBM's... :-)

The 9533 is a geniune IBM piece though...

[Russ Blakeman]

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 04:01:01 GMT, "William R. Walsh"

Post by William R. Walsh
Hi!

9553

It has a Reply board. That doesn't count. Even the FCC ID isn't IBM's... :-)
The 9533 is a geniune IBM piece though...

That was my thinking too...

[Cheers]

Hi Mark

Post by Mark
Hi all,
I've built up a small collection PS2's.

Welcome to the madness party:-)

Post by Mark
They are:-
Model 30/8086
Model 50/80286
Model 70/80386
All are in working condition and the '286 & '386 are relatively complete.
The Model 30 is missing the riser & battery holder assembly as well as the

I should have some around :-)

Post by Mark
'hard card' HDD so it's just running with the two 720k floppies at
present. I'm in Sydney, Australia and was wondering if there was anyone
relatively 'local' that I may be able to get parts for PS2's from.

I am in Perth, here's the deal
you pay for shipping and bit for my petrol and packing cost
you want a tested part, then you pay for the above plus my time :-)
sounds fair?
example
a ESDI HD should cost you $5+shipping, now if you want me to test it, it
will cost
you $20 more.

Post by Mark
Also, could I connect a small (40Meg) IDE HDD to it instead of the hard
card?

yes, and you can connect rll, and mfm to it too :-)
as long as you have the right controller :-)

Post by Mark
If it is possible and as the supply rails are included on ribbon cable to
the drive, I would need to make up a special cable to convert from whatever
the PS2 connections are to IDE. I have the pin connections for IDE but
was wondering if anyone knew what the pinout for the PS2's HDD would be?

no, mixing ESDI with IDE and SCSI, is like mixing oranges with apples
and bananas

Post by Mark
Regards,
Mark.

[Dan the K]

Post by Saskia Bormann
Hi Mark

Post by Mark
Hi all,
I've built up a small collection PS2's.

Welcome to the madness party:-)

Post by Mark
They are:-
Model 30/8086
Model 50/80286
Model 70/80386

...

Post by Saskia Bormann

Post by Mark
Also, could I connect a small (40Meg) IDE HDD to it instead of the hard
card?

yes, and you can connect rll, and mfm to it too :-)
as long as you have the right controller :-)

Post by Mark
If it is possible and as the supply rails are included on ribbon cable to
the drive, I would need to make up a special cable to convert from whatever
the PS2 connections are to IDE. I have the pin connections for IDE but
was wondering if anyone knew what the pinout for the PS2's HDD would be?

no, mixing ESDI with IDE and SCSI, is like mixing oranges with apples
and bananas

Post by Mark
Regards,
Mark.

----- [ CHEERS...... ] ------

However, they can coexist if each has a separate controller. I have an
8580-071 which runs quite well with ESDI and SCSI.

Dan

[Mark]

Thanks for all those responses!

I was wanting to make the Model 30 as original & complete as possible. The
substitute drive idea was in case I couldn't find the proper hardcard for
it.

The reason that I thought an IDE drive might work was along these lines...

The method used for connecting the HDD's in the 'micro-channeled' Models 50
and 70, which I think are SCSI's, is consiserably different to the Model
30. Apart from being ISA, the Model 30 has 40-pin FDD/44-pin HDD connectors
on the motherboard in a similar fashion to the more contemporary 34-pin
FDD/40-pin HDD system.

It's also common for PS2's to include the power supply lines in the ribbon
cable. So I thought the original drive may have used the 40 pin IDE system
withe the extra 4 pins for power. Anyway, apparently it didn't so thanks
for enlightening me otherwise!

A special thanks to 'Cheers' from Perth for the offer of parts. I'll send
you an e-mail during the week about that.

Regards,
Mark.

[Saskia Bormann]

Post by Mark
...
The reason that I thought an IDE drive might work was along these lines...
The method used for connecting the HDD's in the 'micro-channeled' Models 50
and 70, which I think are SCSI's, is consiserably different to the Model
30. Apart from being ISA, the Model 30 has 40-pin FDD/44-pin HDD connectors
on the motherboard in a similar fashion to the more contemporary 34-pin
FDD/40-pin HDD system.

First: You have to "disconnect" the FDD- from HDD-controller in your
thoughts ;o) The only thing they have common is, that their connectors
are close to each other on modern mainboards. And that only because
someone included the HDD controller on almost every modern mainboard.
Previously, it was a solution for smaller computers like workstations,
but today it's obvious that the mainboard contains one ... for which
reason ever. If you work with PS/2s, you have to forget everything about
modern PC clones (they are junk in any case) *g*

The 44-pin connector could be a direct bus attachment (DBA) port. It's a
special MC port that connects to an integrated ESDI controller on a DBA
HDD. But I don't think so, because all 8086-based systems have an ISA
bus and not MCA - like you already have discovered. SCSI is a 50-pin
connector. ESDI are two connectors; a small data bus for each drive (in
the PS/2 implementation: max. two) with 20 pins and a control bus for
both with 34 pins.

Post by Mark
It's also common for PS2's to include the power supply lines in the ribbon
cable. So I thought the original drive may have used the 40 pin IDE system
withe the extra 4 pins for power. Anyway, apparently it didn't so thanks
for enlightening me otherwise!

That's not completely correct. Only PS/2 floppies are ribbon-powered.
Drives interfaces are "normal". Except for the DBA drives i mentioned
above, but as it attaches trough the DBA port like a MC-adapter, and the
MC always carries power, that doesn't count ;o)

Saskia

[Mark]

Thanks Saskia...

Post by Saskia Bormann

...

The 44-pin connector could be a direct bus attachment (DBA) port. It's a
special MC port that connects to an integrated ESDI controller on a DBA
HDD. But I don't think so, because all 8086-based systems have an ISA
bus and not MCA - like you already have discovered. SCSI is a 50-pin
connector. ESDI are two connectors; a small data bus for each drive (in
the PS/2 implementation: max. two) with 20 pins and a control bus for
both with 34 pins.
Saskia

What I really need to know then is what interface the Model 30's original
hardcard used to that 44 pin motherboard connector. And then try to find
one of those hardcards...

Mark.

[RickE]

Mark, the standard 8530s did not use a hardcard, William has the
details on the 8530 hard drive -- it was an early, proprietary step
towards what eventually became ATA/IDE: mostly an extension of the
16-bit AT bus on a cable to the drive, the drive contains it's own
controller. Sadly, most of these drives were not very reliable. The
WD-325Q was probably the most common 20MB drive in this group, the
WD-325N is slightly less common, and the ST-125L is rather uncommon.
There's no "magic cable" that will allow you to use a standard IDE
drive in place of the IBM drives, the interface is not "close enough"
to the IDE standard to allow that.

Rick Ekblaw

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

Post by Saskia Bormann
The 44-pin connector could be a direct bus attachment (DBA) port. It's a
special MC port that connects to an integrated ESDI controller on a DBA
HDD. But I don't think so, because all 8086-based systems have an ISA
bus and not MCA - like you already have discovered. SCSI is a 50-pin
connector. ESDI are two connectors; a small data bus for each drive (in
the PS/2 implementation: max. two) with 20 pins and a control bus for
both with 34 pins.

That 44 pin connector is a "DBA" port of sorts. It is somewhat modeled after
an MFM/ST-506 controller, and I believe that the controller resides on the
drive just as in the DBA ESDI seen on the 50, 55 and 70.

The "original" PS/2 Model 50 (no Z) used the exact same hard disk as went
into the 30 and 30-286. (For the most part, anyway...many 30-XTs had a 20MB
hard disk and won't run with the 30MB from a 30-286 or 50-286.) This didn't
sit well with some people, so IBM offered not only the 50Z, but also a
controller card with onboard ROMs that would let you use a DBA ESDI (30, 60,
80, 120, 160MB) hard disk on the 50. From what I understand these cards are
somewhat rare. I have at least one.

If you don't have that card, you can use 50Z's ROM BIOS contents with the 50
or you can use an alternate controller, such as the Arco AC-1070 card. I
have a Model 50 here with a 386 MCMaster and that Arco card. It works well
with a 170MB Conner hard disk.

William

[David L. Beem]

Hi William,

..The "original" PS/2 Model 50 (no Z) used the exact same
hard disk as went into the 30 and 30-286. (For the most
part, anyway...many 30-XTs had a 20MB hard disk and
won't run with the 30MB from a 30-286 or 50-286.)...

Nope, the drives for the 50-021 have a 50 pin edge connector. I'd have
to look at the CHS tables for the two different models to see if inside the
drive case was the same. But the controller board for one is not
interchangeable with the other.
Louis may have the pinouts of the 44-pin cable used for the Model 25,
Model 25 286, Model 30, & Model 30 286 in his webspace. In any regard I have
them listed in a book. As Rick says, vastly different from the other
interfaces out there.
IBM itself did put a 3-1/2" MFM drive & controller in many Model 25s
(8086 version), leaving the DBA port unused. Of course it stole a slot (out
of the lowly two available) in that configuration. Both types were so slow
that I don't think it made much of a difference (with the right 3-1/2" MFM
drive you could go to a higher capacity, but why not do that with an IDE or
SCSI controller anyway).
The Model 30 (8086) with two 720Kb diskette drives was very common
(that was my first PS/2, which I later added a hard drive). Ultimate (stock)
configuration is the 1.44Mb upgrade we know of, a planar able to run the
30Mb HDD, & an external 4869-001 5-1/4" drive. That takes some work & time
(as one of my units is configured now).
If Mark was a little more relaxed about restoring to a stock hard
drive, I would say run an 8-bit SCSI or IDE card (I have one of each that
way). Lose a slot, but gain performance, capacity, & reliability. But the
Model 25 / Model 30 drives do come up in rare moments on eBay (there was a
couple in a group listing a few weeks ago).
David
***@IBMMuseum.com

[Louis Ohland]

http://www.gilanet.com/ohlandl/misc/IBM_IDE.html

Post by David L. Beem
Hi William,

..The "original" PS/2 Model 50 (no Z) used the exact same
hard disk as went into the 30 and 30-286. (For the most
part, anyway...many 30-XTs had a 20MB hard disk and
won't run with the 30MB from a 30-286 or 50-286.)...

Nope, the drives for the 50-021 have a 50 pin edge connector. I'd have
to look at the CHS tables for the two different models to see if inside the
drive case was the same. But the controller board for one is not
interchangeable with the other.
Louis may have the pinouts of the 44-pin cable used for the Model 25,
Model 25 286, Model 30, & Model 30 286 in his webspace. In any regard I have
them listed in a book. As Rick says, vastly different from the other
interfaces out there.
IBM itself did put a 3-1/2" MFM drive & controller in many Model 25s
(8086 version), leaving the DBA port unused. Of course it stole a slot (out
of the lowly two available) in that configuration. Both types were so slow
that I don't think it made much of a difference (with the right 3-1/2" MFM
drive you could go to a higher capacity, but why not do that with an IDE or
SCSI controller anyway).
The Model 30 (8086) with two 720Kb diskette drives was very common
(that was my first PS/2, which I later added a hard drive). Ultimate (stock)
configuration is the 1.44Mb upgrade we know of, a planar able to run the
30Mb HDD, & an external 4869-001 5-1/4" drive. That takes some work & time
(as one of my units is configured now).
If Mark was a little more relaxed about restoring to a stock hard
drive, I would say run an 8-bit SCSI or IDE card (I have one of each that
way). Lose a slot, but gain performance, capacity, & reliability. But the
Model 25 / Model 30 drives do come up in rare moments on eBay (there was a
couple in a group listing a few weeks ago).
David